Forum:Vote to move to independence

After the disaster of the problems with ShoutWiki, I know many of you want to move away elsewhere, mainly to independence. We will not be moving to another host for sure so it's ShoutWiki or independence. I am writing a list of positives and negatives towards ShoutWiki and Independence.

ShoutWiki

Positives

• Lots of staff members.
• Staff are very helpful.
• A range of wikis that all are connected due to being a host site.

Negatives

• Many wikis will be moving away, thus lowering ShoutWiki's Google ranking due to less pages.
• Simpsons Fanon is still broken.

Neutral Points

• ShoutWiki will probably not make the same mistakes twice. They will be putting forward many things to stop this from happening again.
• They are also making a tool for bureaucrats to make their own database dumps, meaning we won't lose as much next time if this does happen.

Independence

Positives

• We get our own domain name (probably simpsonswiki.net)
• Admins get our own email addresses (username@simpsonswiki.net)
• Google Analytics for advanced stat tracking.
• Our forum will also be moved to its own subdomain.
• Hosted by a member of NIWA may mean more members, etc.
  • Many users also prefer independent wikis, as seen when SmashWiki moved from Wikia and gained a lot of new users.
• We will most probably get Vector (I will need to double check this).

Negatives

• Not as well linked, since we are not hosted, there will be no host linking to us.

Discussion

I have two questions: Would moving to an independent site cost anything, and who's to say that we won't have database problems if we move? -- Brian McClure 07:28, 2 May 2011 (MSD)

No. The person who came to me, Jake, is willing to pay all costs towards the wiki. And no one is promising that we won't have any problems there either. We could have problems any where we go. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 13:06, 2 May 2011 (MSD)

Got this from him:

"Since we last spoke, Nookipedia has moved over to its own virtual private server with considerable improvements in performance and MySQL stability. Because it's literally the only site hosted on that server, all of the server resources would be shared between Wikisimpsons and Nookipedia. Obviously I can't guarantee 100% uptime, but we haven't had a single problem since the move."

☆The Solar Dragon☆ 01:21, 3 May 2011 (MSD)

One question: will wikis like Simpsons Fanon Wiki, UnSimpsons etc be moving as well? I know the answer is most likely yes, just checking. ----Smiley12 (talk • contribs) http://www.shoutwiki.com/w/images/simpsonsdictionary/a/a8/Awaadmin.png 08:32, 3 May 2011 (MSD)

Yes. They will all become subdomains of our domain. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 09:11, 3 May 2011 (MSD)

From IRC:

[19:18]	<Solar_Dragon>	Hi ashley, will the free use of Monaco be extended a month or so since the crash took over a month to be fixed?
[19:59]	<ashley>	rar Solar_Dragon; we're looking into it, but most likely so, yes

☆The Solar Dragon☆ 20:33, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

And from Jake:

"I can confirm that you will definitely have access to the Vector skin, as well as all MediaWiki extensions. Smiley

As previously discussed, my hosting offer extends to the other Simpsons wikis (Fanon, Simptionary, etc...) as well if they wish. Each one will get it's own subdomain. (fanon.simpsonswiki.net, simptionary.simpsonswiki.net, etc...)

Some users have been voicing concerns about losing traffic by moving off of a wiki farm. Choosing a domain like simpsonswiki.net will pretty much ensure that the wiki will show up in Google searches for 'simpsons wiki'." ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 20:45, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Im putting the Wikismipsons Ad that im making on hold until we make a decision since the URL will be in it a lot. ----Smiley12 (talk • contribs) http://www.shoutwiki.com/w/images/simpsonsdictionary/a/a8/Awaadmin.png 10:00, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Question: Will our logins be kept while moving? Doh5678 16:43, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Most likely not. We will probably have to make new accounts and will probably lose our edit count. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 18:34, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Will you be able to give the users their powers back? Doh5678 19:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Of course I will. However, I might ask admins and rollbacks to reapply for the rights to explain why they think they should have them as I don't think we need so many admins. The chances are that everyone will get their rights back but there is still that chance. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 21:08, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Another answer to a question:

[19:29]	<Solar_Dragon>	Hi Skizzerz, may I ask what precautions you have put in place to stop a crash on that scale happening again?
[19:30]	<Skizzerz>	offsite backukps
[19:30]	<Skizzerz>	in more than one place, this time

☆The Solar Dragon☆ 18:34, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Don' expect this wiki to be deleted if you move, Shoutwiki will say something along the lines of: "You are not the only fans and we want the people who stay to still be able to edit a wiki on the simpsons", even if all the admins etc vote to remove it and you get 100% of the editors to as well, it will stay here, some incompetent user will however adopt it and add a bunch of useless stuff though. Escyos 11:08, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

• So will this one still be here or not if we move? ----- A Kind of Madness - King /cjc 16:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Staff will delete the wiki once we have moved, after a short period of time with a notice on the wiki. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 19:20, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Will the AutoWikiBrowser function at an independent site? -- Brian McClure 14:37, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes. It can function on any wiki. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 17:49, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Solar, do you have any new information about what preventative measures ShoutWiki has taken to make another less crash less likely? "Multiple offsite backups" is NOT a satisfactory response. Specifically, I would like to know whether they've sacked the host who served them so poorly during the outage. And if they feel that information about their business dealings is too sensitive to reveal, then that's too bad and not a good enough reason not to answer. Based on what happened during the outage, it seems to me that their choice of server host has a definite bearing on how likely future problems are, and that IS fair game to ask questions about. So, any new info? Thank you! -- Mythigator 15:00, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

They haven't sacked them - yet. However, they are looking at getting their old hardware they have lying around and using that as a backup system in case the datacentre screw them over again. This has not been implemented yet though. Solar Dragon 17:23, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Vote

The number of votes won't be everything. The strength of the argument will decide the move.

Support

• I support for the benefits of moving to independence. I have no problem with ShoutWiki - I'm moving a wiki here - although we have a good opportunity which should benefit us. There is something about an independent wiki which is much more appealing. The domains (especially for the forums) are a lot more convenient. I think we should take advantage of this opportunity. --Cook879 01:23, 2 May 2011 (MSD)
• I support your move, I moved my wiki to independent and its so much better, if theres a problem you can actually see whats wrong and fix it instead of waiting two weeks before a staff members posts a vague blog on whats going on. Certain things have to be learnt to do (such as mediawiki extensions etc) but there is heaps of info on how to do all that. Escyos 07:02, 2 May 2011 (MSD)

If you know how to contact staff (IRC is usually best) then they can fix problems pretty quickly. The crash was pretty bad but now that ShoutWiki is back up, once speeds are back to normal, ShoutWiki will be business as usual. Sure, independence is great if you know what you're doing. We will, however, have someone who does know what he's doing looking after us if we do move. We're being hosted by someone else, the same person who hosts Animal Crossing Wiki on NIWA. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 14:44, 2 May 2011 (MSD)

I, and others, shoudn't have to go finding places to ask the staff. The site should have been back online quicker but they weren't properly prepared for a failure and had to redo everything. If you get a free domain and free assistance, unlike me who had to pay and has to learn from my mistakes, then go for it, not only would it be better but it would put you over the wikia version as well, just ensure you have a heap of antispam protection ( I learned the hard way on that one). Escyos 05:39, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

• I support the move fully, and would like us to be independent. D'oh¡Ay Carumba!D'oh! 07:42, 3 May 2011 (MSD)

But why do you support the move? ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 09:13, 3 May 2011 (MSD)

Oops, sorry. I forgot to list why. I have wanted us to be independent for quite a while myself, and I don't think I can forgive such a huge, long crash like Shoutwiki's site outage. Simpsons Fanon is still down, and Shoutwiki's server is fairly slow. BTW, will we move Simpsons Fanon, UnSimpsons, Simptionary, and the Springfield Shopper, also? D'oh¡Ay Carumba!D'oh! 03:38, 5 May 2011 (MSD)

Try reading the discussion. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 05:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

They will (as stated above). ----Smiley12 (talk • contribs) http://www.shoutwiki.com/w/images/simpsonsdictionary/a/a8/Awaadmin.png 07:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

• I agree with moving. Always wanted to move ever since we first got the offer although we had only just come to ShoutWiki so it was too soon. I also like that the admins will be getting their own emails like smiley12@wikisimpsons.net (there is also a problem when you use the hash thing # to count votes and then someone comments underneath the vote then the count restarts with the next hash) ----Smiley12 (talk • contribs) http://www.shoutwiki.com/w/images/simpsonsdictionary/a/a8/Awaadmin.png 08:22, 3 May 2011 (MSD)

EDIT: Bullet Points, much better.----Smiley12 (talk • contribs) http://www.shoutwiki.com/w/images/simpsonsdictionary/a/a8/Awaadmin.png 09:16, 3 May 2011 (MSD)

• I think we should move. Ever since I heard that Solar Dragon had gotten an offer, I thought it was a great idea, but like many, didn't like the prospect of moving again straight after a move. Now that the time has come, there are several actual points why I think we should move. The first is because of ShoutWiki's downtime. Sure, ShoutWiki is an amazing community with great people, but it's slow, when it is online. If we move, no one can guarantee it won't be slow, but we will have our own server (or something close to), so it will be a whole lot less likely that we will have problems. The second point is that we have freedom of choice. Sure, we have quite a lot of it here, but if we go independent, we can do things such as add extensions quicker, alter our wiki's looks, and things such as that. I know I don't make a strong argument, but my points made are great, just worded badly. --Will k (Talk) 11:25, 4 May 2011 (MSD)

Neutral

• ShoutWiki has been very good to us. They are a great host and have the potential to be better than Wikia (I really believe that). They need good wikis to help them achieve this goal. However, I have to think about the wiki. I feel that Wikisimpsons will gain a lot if we move. The positives show that. I am at a total loss right now. I don't know whether I want to follow my heart and stay with ShoutWiki or follow my head and move to independence. I need the rest of the community to sway my view to one side and I will possibly be making a final decision based on the feedback. The number of votes won't count. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 22:02, 1 May 2011 (MSD)
• Supporty-Neutral SW is a very good host who have lots of potential. They have good tech. staff and are a lot better than most wiki farms I know, especially that one that should not be named. However Wikisimpsons will gain from moving, such as more users and higher rankings. I really hope that Shout Wiki doesn't go down, but I'm afraid we cannot afford another outage like last time. Doh5678 23:35, 1 May 2011 (MSD)
• I don't really know. ShoutWiki is a very good host (if you forget about the crash that has just finished anyway). I've always liked the idea of moving to our own domain, but nobody will probably find us. It's very difficult for an independent wiki to be found if there are no wikis that link to it. Of course, we could look for affiliates, but it would still be hard for people to find us. ShoutWiki is good now, every page is back, nothing wrong at the moment. I think we shouldn't move. But because of the positive stuff about moving, I don't really know what to do. — ^TheHomer ^{(Talk • Contributions)} 01:41, 2 May 2011 (MSD)
• So we would have a new customized skin if me move? Well, that's another positive. But ShoutWiki has been very good to us. Please guys, this would be our third move. Every move for any wiki means problems (incorrectly moved images, extensions that would have to be removed because they wouldn't work). Besides, we will wait for the move to be complete, and we shouldn't lose any more time. We should start writing articles and go on improving the wiki already. Everything back to normal. — ^TheHomer ^{(Talk • Contributions)} 02:23, 3 May 2011 (MSD)
• Still awaiting answers to the questions I posed for Solar a few nights ago in IRC. Those will determine which way my vote goes. -- Mythigator 15:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
  • The IRC snippet answered one of my questions (whether ShoutWiki will be extending free use of the Monaco skin). Another one was answered when they had the connection issues restored in short order. So, my last outstanding question is, what measures have they taken to decrease the likelihood of this happening again? -- Mythigator 22:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
    • I asked Skizzerz on IRC yesterday but he didn't reply. He either didn't see it or didn't know how to answer it. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 05:17, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
      • I will make my vote on Monday night (USA Pacific time). The key factor is what ShoutWiki has to say about what they've done to decrease the likelihood of another month-long outage. -- Mythigator 13:10, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
      • The IRC response you got from Skizzerz addresses the data loss but not necessarily the month-long outage. What steps have they taken to ensure (as best as possible) that an outage of the same magnitude won't recur, and in the event that it does, that it won't take over a month to get things working again? If the multiple off-site backups Skizzerz are alluded to are also intended to provide for a speedier recovery in the event of a major outage, just how would they come into play? I need more info yet, please. -- Mythigator 19:13, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
• I'm not for or against the move, but won't this wiki's move lower ShoutWiki's ratings? Everyone's done good, but the crash destroyed Autopedia and Simpsons Fanon. Is there even a way to ensure that ShoutWiki is better than Wikia, even with this wiki gone? Just my two cents. UxieLover1994 16:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
• Not very active over the next few months, not that fussed when I think about it. Just commenting here as people are saying I haven't commented yet (/me looks in the room next door...) ----- A Kind of Madness - King /cjc 19:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

• I think you shouldn't move. Hanging on to ShoutWiki is the best option. --Silver Knight 08:11, 2 May 2011 (MSD)

Please explain why you think it is the best option. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 13:33, 2 May 2011 (MSD)

There is another Simpsons Wiki at Wikia and one here. If you move, that creates three Simpson wikis. Then it becomes ridiculous because all three wikis are actually the same. The visitor will say: "Should I go to Simpsons Wiki, Wikisimpsons, or ShoutWiki Simpsons?". I also don't recommend it because despite the fact that staff has cost us over 5 weeks of editing, they still offer us useful features along with the new Vector skin they released and of course, great customer support. If this breakdown happens again, then I would recommend moving then. --Silver Knight 13:41, 2 May 2011 (MSD)

There are several counter-arguments to that. First point: ShoutWiki staff will close down the wiki at request. They are not Wikia. Also, if we were to move, I would look into making our own custom skin, not Monobook, Monaco or Vector. It would be totally unique. There are many extentions out there which we can install. Many features as you would call them. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 13:46, 2 May 2011 (MSD)

Well, I'm not moving Autopedia and I really like Wikisimpsons here. It would be a shame for see you move. :( --'SilverKnight 16:21, 2 May 2011 (MSD)

• 2 I oppose moving as I don't feel this crash will happen again. 5 new premium skins exclusive to shouteiki will be released, and a new extension is coming out soon.Hockeyben

Fuck it. Go ahead and make the move. I'm gonna move to Referata. --'SilverKnight 11:12, 3 May 2011 (MSD)

• I personally oppose this, since nothing like what happened will happen again. I think that they've learnt their lesson, and I think that it would be ultimately beneficial to stay tied to this wikifarm, rather than being out on your own with no google search results. Ajraddatz (Talk) 01:42, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

No google search results? I submitted my site to google 18 days ago and its already on the first page (and thats ONLY with the main page mapped) and it has been on the first page for almost two weeks. As for this not happening again, well, there is always the possibility that it will happen again, if the datacenter fails again and they take time fixing it then theres nothing Shoutwiki can do about that. Escyos 06:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)